kush training help? And, yet more questions about nose pegs.

[camelidman]

Hi,
I've got a couple of young camels.
Both do great on a lead and respond well to verbal commands to turn left and right and to stop and walk on. However, I have a problem with my female that is that she won't kush. She's great otherwise, but kushing seems to be a problem for her (I'm confident it's not a physical limitation, but I guess she feels vulnerable kushing with me around, so refuses).
The male kushes without problems.

So... I've been thinking about using a ground chain. I don't have one set up, but I can set some concrete and attach an eye without any great problems. My concern is that she will continue to do what she does already, which is when I pull her down (and often tempt her with food), she lowers her head (often all the way to the floor), but the rest of her body doesn't follow. I've tried having a helper tickle her underside and her legs with a stick, but it's all to no avail. - These tactics worked with the male.

By the way, I've been using a clicker to train them both so far, which is working well. ...apart from the above issue!

...also, while I'm typing... I read lots about nose pegs in this forum and around the web. They seem to be recommended by some, but opposed [strongly] by others. I'm in France and, if you've read my previous posts, you'll know that I'm as green as it comes when talking about camels. I'm tempted to have pegs fitted (if indeed it's allowed in this country..?) to guarantee a safe ride without having someone on a lead rope. On the other hand I don't want to do them any harm or cause any undue discomfort. I should point out that I haven't started riding them yet and because of their ages I won't start with the male until later this year and not with the female until at least this time next year, if not later.
The question of pegs was actually raised by my vet, who hasn't seen many camels before and, quite out of the blue, asked me when I intended to get them put in (it seems the only camels he's seen before had them).
Summer is picking up here and I'm constantly being asked to take my camels (along with the other camelids of mine) to most of the summer events that have been scheduled in and around our town, for the children to engage with. I feel very confident handling them, but I'd never forgive myself if they suddenly got the urge to 'go left instead of right' and happened to push a child over as they did so. So any additional guarantee of my dominance over them would be welcomed. (but maybe I just need to press on with the training and get this idea out of my head..?)

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

All the best,
Jon

[camelsinfrance]

Hi Jon
Personal recommendation - don't take them out until you are 200 percent confident with your ability, and make sure in France that your public liability covers you - we pay an ABSOLUTE fortune for ours, and there are not many people who will cover camels in France, our agency wrote a special clause in for us, however, all we need is one claim and I can't imagine what will happen to our premims!!

[camelidman]

Point taken about ensuring that I'm confident before taking them in public.
The question is: How do you know when you're totally confident? For instance, I've got a llama that I brought over from England and I've had for over 8 years. She's the calmest of the bunch and last year when my daughter had just started sitting up on her own, I sat her on a saddle and we walked around one of my fields together. For weeks after then we went out each day and did the same.
Then one day I took out this llama along with 3 others with a group of friends for a hike into the hills. After 2 hours of steady walking, and for absolutely no obvious reason she sped forward, almost taking my arm off as she pulled on her lead rope. It took me 10 minutes to calm her down and after we walked on again without problems.
This kind of thing has never happened before with her, and I can only guess that she was stung or bitten by something, but after checking her there was no sign of any marks or blood on her.
So... if this kind of thing can happen with a llama, then I guess it could happen with a camel, and if it happens in public, we'll be all the worse for it.

The old thespians saying 'never work with children or animals', comes to mind!

For the time being any shows I attend with the animals are providing enclosures, so the camels won't be directly exposed to the public without a strong fence. I have assurance for the llamas, but I've yet to speak to the insurance company about camels. Are you registered with the MSA? As they've been very supportive and have helped with negotiating decent insurance rates for us over this last couple of years. I'm hoping they'll be similarly supportive with the camels..?

[camelsinfrance]

OOH MSA - there's a thought, will ask them as we're registered with them.
I know what you mean about the "confidence" situation, I guess that as long as you have done absolutely everything possible to try to ensure the safety of the animal and the rider then that's really the best you can do.
One of my camels would follow me to the ends of the earth and would never put a foot wrong... EVER, and I'm 200% sure of her, even if a bomb dropped behind her she'd stay by my side, on the other hand, I have another who is incredibly well schooled, she's soft and gentle, but I've had 3 occassions when I've been left to doubt exactly how bombproof she is, two of them when she ran over me.
At the end of the day, we're talking big animals here and like humans they can't always be relied upon.
QUICK QUESTION JON... what did you use for a llama saddle, just going there myself now and don't know what would be suitable???

[camelidman]

I actually bought the saddle from a llama specialist in the US. They posted it and a load of other goodies, including lots of different types of packs and other bits that I couldn't find elsewhere (like a pack of ground stakes/screws in a neat pack with 5m leads already attached) to us a couple of years ago and the way the exchange rate is at the moment it entirely offsets the price of postage! I've used them several times since for smaller orders and every time they've proved reliable.

The company name is llamaproducts.com. If you visit the site check out the family trailhead, and the super T packs (I've used the Super T on a 3 week trek, and I didn't carry a thing), if they're still stocking them. Otherwise, the saddle is simply called 'kiddy ride saddle'. My 12 year old son uses it regularly to go to the village on one of the big females. I don't think he'll be able to do it for much longer but for the time being she doesn't seem to mind. It's also great for the baby to sit on as it's got a handle on the front that she can hold onto, as well as for my younger son who uses another of the same type on our donkey.
It's made of nylon and other fabrics.

Hope that helps.

[camel drover]

always remember any animal has a mind of his own and is using it as we speak about something!!!!! there is a point when you feel comfortable with the animal, and you go out!! one of the secrets to having a good show, is to eliminate as many variables as possible ;example barriers, assistance to walk in front behind to move people, eliminating pinch points in the path the camel will walk through etc... etc...and then there the ole fly by the seat of your paints not recommended!!!!! once in a show indoors we were supposed to go out the door on the for side of the building!! here comes 60 biblical dresses women crying (actors) right for us! this was a wreck about to happen about to happen!!! i turned and went out the wrong door to get away from them!! luckily i had considered this might happen we pulled it off it all went well and no one got rubbed out!with time we all get experience!!! with experience we get knowledge!!! some of us forget how we got the knowledge and think we were born with it!!! hope this helps a little

[sinbad]

To put it direct, In my opnion Nose pegs suck!They are always negative. They work, but you are only training your camel to follow not lead! As far as kushing goes, a chain is a bit extreme. Try bolting an o ring low (just above the ground) on a wall (say in a barn) run the lead rope through it from the halter of your camel. Stand in front of the o ring (about 6-8') and pull while someone else "tickles" the front legs of the camel. Tell it to cush while you are doing this.(Don't forget it doesn't know what cush means it will be trying to make sense of it). At first do not pull any harder on the rope than what you can hold (the camel is stronger!) Steady pressure will prevail. (It might take five minutes it might take five hours) Do not start it if you can't finish it. The idea is to teach it that it has to drop its head followed by its front legs (watch your camel naturally do this whenever it cushes on its own.)

You may have to get firm with the "tickles" if a slight doesn't work, but start easy. You may have to go to a rythmic tapping of the front shins with a stick or crop, but start with less and go stronger (be very carefull) your camel may try and front strike you. (also don't lose your temper). As soon as your camel goes down, let off the rope pressure! The important thing is to reward the give to pressure! Praise the heck out of it and pet it all over (instilling confidence) If it immediatly stands up, don't worry about it. Give it a second to think about it. (You will need to decide if you are going to quit and start again tommorow or start over. ) Don't forget the important thing is not to force it to do what you want, but to teach it how to do what you want. Once you get your camel cushing, you will then teach it how to stay down (its another lesson another day!) Donovan

[ivieacres]

To put it direct, In my opnion Nose pegs suck!They are always negative. They work, but you are only training your camel to follow not lead! As far as kushing goes, a chain is a bit extreme. Try bolting an o ring low (just above the ground) on a wall (say in a barn) run the lead rope through it from the halter of your camel. Stand in front of the o ring (about 6-8') and pull while someone else "tickles" the front legs of the camel. Tell it to cush while you are doing this.(Don't forget it doesn't know what cush means it will be trying to make sense of it). At first do not pull any harder on the rope than what you can hold (the camel is stronger!) Steady pressure will prevail. (It might take five minutes it might take five hours) Do not start it if you can't finish it. The idea is to teach it that it has to drop its head followed by its front legs (watch your camel naturally do this whenever it cushes on its own.)

You may have to get firm with the "tickles" if a slight doesn't work, but start easy. You may have to go to a rythmic tapping of the front shins with a stick or crop, but start with less and go stronger (be very carefull) your camel may try and front strike you. (also don't lose your temper). As soon as your camel goes down, let off the rope pressure! The important thing is to reward the give to pressure! Praise the heck out of it and pet it all over (instilling confidence) If it immediatly stands up, don't worry about it. Give it a second to think about it. (You will need to decide if you are going to quit and start again tommorow or start over. ) Don't forget the important thing is not to force it to do what you want, but to teach it how to do what you want. Once you get your camel cushing, you will then teach it how to stay down (its another lesson another day!) Donovan

We all have different oppinions about the nose pegs. However some of us depending on safety issues prefer the nose pegs when we are using our camels for riding. And I personally think that it depends on the individual themselves. Personally it made my camel into a baby when I was such a novice. I really appreciated it.

[sinbad]

I'm glad you are enjoying your camel. Just remember nose pegs break (they get brittle in the sun.) You may want to also halter train your camels with a good rope halter. If you don't know how hire a good horseman. Meanwhile, make sure you hold the noseline loop at the point where they cross, do not put your thumb and index finger in the loop and then put it around the peg (many people lose the tip of their index finger this way.) I have had some experience with nose pegs, but do prefer a halter and will not go back, unless I am lost in the desert and lucky enough to find a camel... a peice of wood and a shoe string and have no other way to get home...:-)