Stupid Question of the month

[DMiller779]

In following the discussions regarding deworming it seems the best suggestion is to have fecal analysis done and then procede with deworming according to the results of the analysis.

I read that a 100x microscope is sufficient for detecting the parasites and these scopes are very reasonably priced. In addition a few slides, test tubes, etc. and a healthy dose of knowledge would allow an owner to determine his own animal's deworming needs. I read the procedure and it doesn't seem that complicated. Is this even possible?

It's midnight...I'm probably just having a brain fart. Oops! Scuse my language. :o

Doug

[camel4ever]

In following the discussions regarding deworming it seems the best suggestion is to have fecal analysis done and then procede with deworming according to the results of the analysis.

I read that a 100x microscope is sufficient for detecting the parasites and these scopes are very reasonably priced. In addition a few slides, test tubes, etc. and a healthy dose of knowledge would allow an owner to determine his own animal's deworming needs. I read the procedure and it doesn't seem that complicated. Is this even possible?

It's midnight...I'm probably just having a brain fart. Oops! Scuse my language. :o

Doug

Hi Doug,
surely you can detect parasite egg from feces with a simple optical microscope and a few slides, tubes etc. Unfortunately this is not as simple and practical as it sound if you have never done it. It will take quite a bit of time to develop the manuality and knowledge to do this. Not worthy unless of course you are studying/working in the biological profession and such knowledge may be useful in the future. Feces have to be "prepared" using various standard methods, it take time to correctly identify the egg shapes of various parasite species, also some parasite species produce larvae (or the eggs hatch) that are not easily identifiable unless the larvae grows to further stages ( weeks) and then you have to use rather complex taxonomic keys. Anyway fecal examination is also it a damn numbing experience! Perhaps most important keep in mind that somebody who has never done fecal examination may probably do mistakes in the identification of parasites with obvious repercussions in the treatment carried out and consequences .

My suggestion is to talk to you vet for suggestions or to give a call to your nearest government veterinary laboratory or veterinary university and ask if they can do a fecal examination of your animals. They do these things as a routine and the fees will not be very high. They will tell you how to collect feces and how to proceed. By doing this you will have a reliable piece of information to guide the management of the deworming treatment of your animal.

[camelidman]

This will sound crazy, but after paying out huge amounts of money to my vets to do simple tasks, I actually bought an ultasound machine a few years ago in the hope that at least I'd be able to test for pregnancy and orientation of the foetus prior to delivery so I could plan to have the vet there for a c-section, etc.
It arrived from the US approx. two weeks after I ordered it from a medical clearance outlet. I had a dog at the time that was a week or two away from giving birth, so she became my test patient.
I should add that when first left university I spent a year with a vet friend of mine in Chile and Peru working with camelids, so I'd seen ultrasounds used many times and thought it couldn't be that difficult a task to learn for myself. I'd also paid for, I guess, over 100 ultrasounds over the years, so I figured I was as good as qualified in their use. A massively wrong assumption to make!
After my initial attempts failed I continued working with it, but didn't ever get it to work as I expected. It soon found its way to ebay and I ended up with a few hundred £ loss.
I learned from this expensive foray that sometimes the simple tasks that vets carry out for us are actually quite complicated, but their ease is the result of many years practice.
[but I still firmly believe that there are lots of tasks that vets do for us that we can do on our own, with little risk to the animals we treat - I'm sure anyone that's watched their vet spend 10 minutes jabbing away with a needle trying to find a site for an IV perfusion will agree! - but we pay for their training and experience, so the decision to give the perfusion in the first place is arguably more important that the delivery...]

Good luck with the microscope idea. I hope it works, and I hope you have time to tell us about it.

Jon

[Cmaentz]

I'm expecting my microscope & related equipment today. I was a vet tech many years ago & although I'm probably rusty, I'm sure it will all come back to me.

I didn't buy itfor Boris but for my goats - I found a great website that shows large images of every parasite known to goats. This is a safer method than randomly worming every 3 months with an all purpose wormer.

Not to mention that several years ago, I suspected that my Fila Brasilieros were infected with Giardia. Three fecal tests came back negative - I then learned that the techs at this clinic had never tested for Giardia & didn't know what they were looking for. At the 4th fecal, the vet checked himself and sure enough, that's what they had. A week later the diarrhea that they had for 4 months finally ended

[DMiller779]

I'm expecting my microscope & related equipment today. I was a vet tech many years ago & although I'm probably rusty, I'm sure it will all come back to me.

I didn't buy itfor Boris but for my goats - I found a great website that shows large images of every parasite known to goats. This is a safer method than randomly worming every 3 months with an all purpose wormer.

Not to mention that several years ago, I suspected that my Fila Brasilieros were infected with Giardia. Three fecal tests came back negative - I then learned that the techs at this clinic had never tested for Giardia & didn't know what they were looking for. At the 4th fecal, the vet checked himself and sure enough, that's what they had. A week later the diarrhea that they had for 4 months finally ended

Hi Christine. That's great that I'm not totally crazy. Of course you bring experience which I wouldn't have...but still it seems that for less than $200 one could at least begin to learn to detect the presence of worm eggs. Maurizio had good input in that the devil is in the details. My thinking is that right now I am shooting in the dark. At least I could learn to detect an egg infestation if not the ability to specifically identify the egg type.

I spent $25 today to have a fecal egg check performed on my camel, Samson. The vet was able to determine a high egg count in less than 15 minutes. (short time because high count) Of course it would have taken longer to detect if the count was low. But then at least you know the count is low.

I found a good little scope (400X) for $90 that would do the job handily. If it doesn't work out (seldom does) then I look at organisms in ditch water, etc. No real loss. If, on the other hand, it works...move over Pasteur!

Do you have a url for those most excellent worm pictures?

Thanks,
Doug

[Cmaentz]

I spent $150 for the scope but I should have spent the extra $100 for the double eyepiece. My employee was a vet lab guy for 20 years and he reminded me that it's a lot easier to see moving microscopic images with 2 eyes instead of one. Oh well, live and learn. (Ebay didn't have any good used ones).

I'm still looking for that site... I'll share it as soon as I find it again. You know, sometimes you randomly come across sites and figure you can find them easily again if needed... and sometimes not. :(

I wouldn't buy a scope if I only had one animal but I have about 30 goats, miniature donkeys and horses, a Zebu, cats and 9 dogs and Boris the camel. The savings long term will be worth it. Maybe if I get good at this, I'll splurge and getting a better scope!

[DMiller779]

I spent $150 for the scope but I should have spent the extra $100 for the double eyepiece. My employee was a vet lab guy for 20 years and he reminded me that it's a lot easier to see moving microscopic images with 2 eyes instead of one. Oh well, live and learn. (Ebay didn't have any good used ones).

I'm still looking for that site... I'll share it as soon as I find it again. You know, sometimes you randomly come across sites and figure you can find them easily again if needed... and sometimes not. :(

I wouldn't buy a scope if I only had one animal but I have about 30 goats, miniature donkeys and horses, a Zebu, cats and 9 dogs and Boris the camel. The savings long term will be worth it. Maybe if I get good at this, I'll splurge and getting a better scope!

Haha! 7 miniature horses, 3 miniature donkeys, 3 goats, 2 potbellied pigs, 1 llama, 1 cat, 8 dogs, 5 rabbits, 1 dove, 1 rat, and 16 chickens and Samson the camel. We must be nuts!

I am glad you mentioned the double eyepiece as I was thinking about that. I also wonder if a camera capable scope would be nice. If I ever manage to find an egg I could get it to smile, take a picture, photoshop it to 8x10, and hang it in my shed for reference.

Off topic question: Do you use a scale or estimate weight on your camel? If you estimate on Boris, can you explain?

Thanks,
Doug

[3droms]

I looked into doing it myself as I had learnt a technique at uni. However, the technique I knew was using the MacMasters slide and I read that it was not sensitive enough. I sort of lost interest then but I will post you some of the stuff I put into favourites while I was considering it.
http://www.shagbarkridge.com/info/deworm.html

I have to go I will post them later

[camel4ever]

Haha! 7 miniature horses, 3 miniature donkeys, 3 goats, 2 potbellied pigs, 1 llama, 1 cat, 8 dogs, 5 rabbits, 1 dove, 1 rat, and 16 chickens and Samson the camel. We must be nuts!

I am glad you mentioned the double eyepiece as I was thinking about that. I also wonder if a camera capable scope would be nice. If I ever manage to find an egg I could get it to smile, take a picture, photoshop it to 8x10, and hang it in my shed for reference.

Off topic question: Do you use a scale or estimate weight on your camel? If you estimate on Boris, can you explain?

Thanks,
Doug

Hi Doug
a practical formula to estimate the weight of a dromedary is

ShxCcxHcx50

Sh: shoulder height in meters (just before the hump)
Cc: circumference of the chest (taken behind the pedestal) in meters
Hc:circumference of the abdomen passing on the top of the hump in meters

in practice

1.83x2.3x2.7x50 = 568 kg

The formula is not accurate for calves and young animals but for adults is ok. Do it a few times before your camel is fed or watered and you will have a reliable weigh estimation

[DMiller779]

Hi Doug
a practical formula to estimate the weight of a dromedary is

ShxCcxHcx50

Sh: shoulder height in meters (just before the hump)
Cc: circumference of the chest (taken behind the pedestal) in meters
Hc:circumference of the abdomen passing on the top of the hump in meters

in practice

1.83x2.3x2.7x50 = 568 kg

The formula is not accurate for calves and young animals but for adults is ok. Do it a few times before your camel is fed or watered and you will have a reliable weigh estimation

Thank you Maurizio!

Doug