Blue Tongue and Ticks

[camelidman]

I've got a couple of questions for you camel enthusiasts.

1, I live in France and yesterday my vet came to me to tell me that he's been informed by the DDSV (the veterinary body responsible for France) that from this week forward, he has to vaccinate all ruminants for blue tongue until the disease is eradicated from this country. He was unsure as to whether he'd have to carry out this vaccination on my llamas, alpacas and camels.
I wonder do any of you have any experience with this, specifically, are they at risk from this horrible disease, and therefore should I accept his offer to vaccinate (the vaccination is the general antibody given to cows, sheep, etc.)?

2, My camels have had several tick bites over the last few months. I've removed the majority in the same way that I'd remove them from myself or from any of the other animals - by gently twisting them anti-clockwise, until the head comes out (then taking great joy in crushing the little blighters between my fingers until they 'pop'). However, now their winter coats have been shed, I'm noticing that where the ticks were sited, they've left dark bumps on the skin of the camels that are the size of around 2.5cm in diameter (1 inch) and are swollen noticably. I don't think they're infected, but I also don't get the impression that they're going to suddenly disappear, as they've obviously been there since they were bitten during the winter period.
Again, has anyone any experience with this? Do you normally treat ticks (in situ) differently than I have done? Do you apply any anti parisite sprays/lotions or use any injectible products that I could use for next winter?
I don't think that they are prone to ticks during the summer months, as the ticks seem to gain hold of the animals by burrowing through their coats, which are now no longer there, before they start sucking.

Thanks in advance for any/all advice that you're able to offer.

[Cameleer]

Disease and Cause

Bluetongue is an insect-borne, viral disease primarily of sheep, occasionally goats and deer and, very rarely, cattle. The disease is non-contagious and is only transmitted by insect vectors. The disease is caused by a virus belonging to the family Reoviridae.

Species Affected

Primarily a disease of sheep but other species such as goats, cattle, buffaloes, camels, antelopes and deer can be infected. Humans are not infected.

Distribution

The virus is present in most countries of Africa, the Middle East, India, China, the United States, and Mexico. Bluetongue virus infection, without associated clinical disease, is present in Southeast Asia, Papua New Guinea, northern South America and northern Australia.

Key Signs

The disease is characterized by fever, widespread haemorrhages of the oral and nasal tissue, excessive salivation, and nasal discharge. In acute cases the lips and tongue become swollen and this swelling may extend below the lower jaw. Lameness, due to swelling of the cuticle above the hoofs and emaciation, due to reduced feed consumption because of painful inflamed mouths, may also be symptoms of this disease. The blue tongue that gives the disease its name occurs only in a small number of cases. Convalescence of surviving sheep is slow. The high fever in sheep results in wool breaks, which adds to production losses.

Spread

The virus cannot be transmitted between susceptible animals without the presence of insect carriers. The incidence and geographical distribution of bluetongue depends on seasonal conditions, the presence of insect vectors, and the availability of the susceptible species of animals. The insect carriers, biting midges, prefer warm, moist conditions and are in their greatest numbers and most active after it rains.

[camelidman]

Many thanks for your response.
I remember last year in the UK we visited a farm belonging to a friend of mine who had several sheep infected with this disease. It sickened me to see their swollen tongues and their general malaise.
It sounds from what you wrote that it is something that I should be wary of in this current climate and, as we find it impossible to control all flies (but we do use several herbal deterrents on our sheep and cows - to varying effects), I am encouraged to subscribe to the regimen of vaccinations that are available.
However, now my main concern is whether I am safe to allow my camelids to be given the same vaccination that is offered to sheep and cows (and goats, I think..), or are there any others out there that are specifically developed for our animals?
If you have any thoughts on this, please let me know. I realise I've not given the name of the drugs that our vet has, as I don't have them with me, but I can find out if that's any help to you.

Thanks again Cameleer!

[Cameleer]

I can’t answer you question but check out this link about some other people that have camels in that area.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/04/11/eablue111.xml

Here is their website where you can also find their email address, maybe they already have the answers your looking for.
http://www.jacamels.co.uk/index.html

[camelsinfrance]

Hi John
Don't know if Jo and Rebecca have got back to you, but French authorities are looking on Bluetongue somewhat differently. You'll need to contact your Director of Veterinary services in your area as each one will give you a different answer... so much so as we have a trek across France soon - we've had to call each individual Director for each department!
There is no directive in France to immunise against Bluetongue in camels - whilst they come into the ruminant category, and thus into the "innoculation category" as none have had Bluetongue, the authorities are not classing it as a priority...
Having said that - each one does work independantly, so... in short your DOVS is the first point of call.

[camelsinfrance]

Re the ticks sorry
Butox!

[camelidman]

Hi CIF,
I'm intrigued by your experiences with the Vet guys... Trekking across France for the inoculation? or are you doing the trek to get hold of a different strain of the inoculation?

I've been in touch with the Bourgogne department already and they suggest the same as you, that it's not a priority as no camels have been infected, although that doesn't mean anything in their eyes as there aren't enough camels in France to provide usable statistics.

Adding to my frustration, is the fact that right now it's llama and alpaca birthing season for me, so I've got several animals due over the next few weeks (one today!). I'm now a little worried about the timing of giving the dose to these.

I've contacted the guys in the UK that Cameleer suggested. I've not had a response yet, but I've also sent out emails to other camelidae farms in the UK that may have direct experience of this... I'm yet to get a response from any of them, but I'll post it here if/when they arrive.

On the tick front. I've had to spray on a little Arkofly over the last few days as they were getting bitten rather badly from some huge horse flies that have left bloody marks all over their bodies.
I hate the stuff, as apart from the fact that it's 'non bio' (and I'll be saying goodbye to our 'bio' status if I get seen with a can!), unless I wear an industrial gas mask it leaves me wheezing for days afterwards.
I've tried loads of 'organic' products, and I've made a citronella, tea tree oil and a variety of other natural oils mix, but there's nothing like some hard core chemicals to get rid of the them immediately and for a decent length of time. When I saw the poor animals the other day covered in the vampiric pests I knew there was nothing else for it but the proverbial sledgehammer.
This doesn't solve my winter tick problem, but it's making me think more about a longer lasting concoction of oils that I could formulate during the summer months in readiness for the winter (maybe I'll start rubbing it in before their thick coats get too long, then apply it by dropper frequently after that...?).

[camelsinfrance]

HE HE HE
No ... we're not trekking across France for the innoculation - we're doing it for charity!!!
Arkofly does work well for the flies, give your camels another few weeks though and their hair will be too long for the flies to get to them.
Have you tried the Avon products ( I'm guessing you may have as they're big in the Alpaca world) Apparently they're great.
Decathalon do a great equine gel that I use on my girls ears and works for 2 - 3 days at a time.
Good luck with your birthing

[camelsinfrance]

PS - wash hands well post Arkofly - my husband made the mistake of touching his face last year whilst his hands were still coated with the stuff - he was REALLY ill!! Had a red face for days... no flies on him though!!:joker

[camelidman]

That's really funny about your husband. I'm still laughing as I type!

I've got to go to our nearest city in the next week, so I'll check out Decathlon when I'm there.

On the blue tongue front: I had a quick email back from the people at JACamels in the UK and they've given me the name and email of someone that's studying the bluetongue vaccine on camelids, so I've sent her an email and I'll post the reply here when it comes.

Finally, I'd love to hear more about your planned trek. Sorry I got my wires crossed about it, but now I'm on topic it sounds like a great adventure.
I once did the Pennine Way in the UK with a llama and a dog, but I'm in awe of your idea of going across France with camels. I can only imagine the reaction you'll get as you wander through each sleepy village with them in tow!

[camelidman]

No news from any of the people I've contacted about whether I should give Bluetongue vaccinations to my camelids.

I'm under pressure from the vets to either subscribe or provide evidence that shows that they shouldn't be given the vaccination. I can't give them anything so I've decided to have a small number of my llamas and alpacas vaccinated next week, then wait three weeks (which is the latest I seem to be able to push out my man with the needle), and if no problems I'll go with the rest of the herds.

The sample group will consist of 4 llamas. Both male & female, cria and older animals, and 2 alpacas. A male and a female aged 3 and 5 years. I'll keep them segregated for the three weeks and see what happens. I've only got two camels, and I don't want to separate them, so I've kept them out of the test group.

Most people I've spoken to suggest that I'm being over cautious, but having never had to do this before it's become more about my personal level of comfort rather than following the consensus, while there's no firm evidence to hand.

I'll post more updates over the next few weeks. Hopefully, they'll be of use to someone else facing this problem in the future.

[camelsinfrance]

What's the latest Jon about the vaccine for camels?
Are you going to give this?
Tell you what, I'd give it in a flash, but still have no info on other peoples experiences with it - is it licenced for Bactrians yet does anyone know?

[camelidman]

I'm not able to find out if it has been tested (conclusively) on camels of either type.
It looks like I'm going to give it to them, following my own little test (as mentioned before). I'll let you know how it goes and I'll feed back to you any info re. how the camels are after their shots, once that time comes (assuming all goes well).

I called the vet today to book in the llamas and alpaca group, but I got voicemail. I'll call again tomorrow and get a date for next week. On the plus side... they're not too expensive. I was told the other day that it'll be around 5 euros per animal, plus the visitation fee (38.55 for my vet (which I think will be our 6th visit this month so far, after the pigs maladie d'audjesky tests, the cows brucellosis tests, the forced delivery of one of the llamas afterbirths (which didn't make an appearance after 36 hours), a prolapsed uterus in one of the sheep (yes I know it's late to be lambing... this one got away) and, having to put down a lame goat) - this farming game is an expensive business! I'm now insisting that that children put all their efforts into trying to become vets when they get older - just to make my life easier and cheaper!)).

I suspect I'll be the one to give he camels their shots, as the vet isn't too confident with them. This'll be my first time injecting them so I'll do plenty of reading up and practice with them before the date arrives. - the last time we spoke about injecting them he told me that he'd prefer them to be hobbled before he made his approach!

[camelsinfrance]

What a wouse!
Our vet tries to look brave... but again, he's not at all confident, he used to keep them at arms length, but now tries to look brave when he sees little old me whispering to my camels to cush!
The last time he was pretty amazed when one of our llamas scaled a 6 foot fence, and then cleared him with me holding onto the end for dear life!!
Vets in the South seem to be so much cheaper, 5 Euro call out charge for a Sunday, and 10 Euros to come including petrol... why is it they always get sick on a Sunday!!

Just a thought - do you have a crush for your camels - we built one, but never had to use it, however, it may help build your vets confidence!!

[camelidman]

Those prices are awesome! Please send a list of available farms in your area and I'll be down there before the month's out!

I have a crush for the cows. I hadn't thought of using it for the camels...

I go through phases of loving then hating our vet. He's okay as someone to fall back on when times get tough, but absolutely no use at all if you ask something outside of his comfort zone (which basically just includes goats, sheep and cows (he's even useless with my pigs and took nearly an hour to take three blood samples the other day, despite me telling him that he had to take it from under the tail, he persisted in cutting the ears, leaving them with five or more cuts each before he got barely enough to fill the bottom of the phial!)).
Then again, at 3am when everything's going wrong he's always there and never seems to take a holiday.

[camelsinfrance]

Don't see why... he must be able to afford one...
Perhaps he's looking forward to early retirement!

[camelsinfrance]

John... can you give me an update on your progress with the BT vaccine...
Did your pregnant llamas have it in the end? Any problems, reactions? How about the camels... did they have it too? Interested to know of the outcome - there has been a load of problems with BT here and in the Gers in the last few months

[camelidman]

Hi,
Normally I'd have replied straight away, but I've been back to England for the last 10 days, so haven't been checking the site. - On that note, does anyone know if it's possible to mark a thread then to have an email message sent to the you if an addition is made? That would have been really handy for me, as I was checking emails, but not the site during my time away from home.

Okay, Blue Tongue vaccinations...
I initially had one pregnant llama and two adult females, and one 2 month old male and one 9 month old female and two adult alpacas (one male, one female) vaccinated with serotype 8. I kept them in segregation for 4 weeks, and monitored them three times daily. I monitored their temperatures, their food intake, their faeces and urine. All appeared fine. Finally, I got the vet around on the 4 week point and he confirmed that there was no reason to suspect that there had been any kind of adverse indication.
So, I moved on to the rest of the herds. We booked the vet to visit for a full morning and we got down all of the alpacas, the rest of the llamas, three llama/alpaca crosses, the two camels, the goats, the sheep, and the cows. The camels got the same dosage as the cows, and the llamas, crosses and alpacas received the same dose, which was about half that of the cows (double that given to a sheep). I'm sure we could have been more precise with dosage based on weight, but... It turns out that donkeys and horses arent' susceptible to the disease, so we were able to miss them off the list. That was two and a half weeks ago, and all has gone well. We have to issue the second vaccination to the cows, the camels and the goats, as they require two identical shots three weeks apart, so that's organised for this Thursday at 11am.
All-in-all it's gone very well. I was told at the time that I was being over cautious about the camelids, but I'd rather do that than approach an unknown situation in an overly relaxed manner.
The pregnant llama from the first round of vaccinations has since given birth to a very healthy boy. One of the others gave birth 3 days after receiving her shot, which was a mistake on our part as we seem to have got the dates mixed up, but again, mother and cria are very healthy. We've been told that 2 months of age is the minimum for the BT vaccination, but at this time of year, when flies are few and far between, I'll wait until next year for those two new borns as well as the rest that are due this winter.

That's it for now. I'll try to remember to update in a few weeks with a final 'all clear', for the camels.
As always, if anyone has any more specific questions, just let me know.
Jon