New unexperienced camel owner:)

[ivieacres]

I just got a camel this week and had my first biting experience that scared me to death. I feel alot better after reading some of the old forum stuff, but I am still trying to read my camels moods.

He has only been here since Friday, and I was told that he needs time to adjust to his new surroundings. He sometimes makes this noise and froths at the mouth. It's a starts with a gargling sound in the throat and then blows out of this mouth with lips/mouth (flapping?) when he starts doing it he works up foam coming out of his mouth.

I asked the original owners about it and they said it sounded like he was nervous and still getting use to his new home. He is 11, gelded and trained to cush, stop and get up on command. The first day he let me work with him without this sound---and seemed at ease with me, I trusted him. But the second day is when he bit me on the arm-thank goodness I had a coat on! I was feeding him out of my hand before, he lets me touch his face, scratch his nose etc without pulling back.

When the former owner delivered him, upon his leaving he told me not to "ruin" Chuck by making him mean. After he bit me yesterday (I think a feeding thing) I was afraid that he was getting an attitude towards me and would not work for me.

Should I be this paranoid about working with him or is just because I am new at this. Can my camel take some scolding without holding a grudge?
Any help is appreciated:)

[3droms]

Congratulations on your camel purchase.

Our camels make a variety of noises. The most common are:-
1) a long groaning noise when they want something
2) a weight lifting sound when they are under "strain" (for example during the process of standing up)
3) a growling noise when they are cranky at one another (very low growl usually combined with the evil eye and the mouth slightly open like they are about to bite the other camel).

Camels do make quite a few different noises. Some camels are also quiet while others are vocally quite expressive.

I think that you are being too hard on yourself. You both need time to get to know one another. I'm sure that he has not developed an attitude if he did not have one before. Camels can take scolding, in fact to have a productive relationship it has to involve discipline (I don't mean hitting or screaming) and understanding from both of you. Natural horsemanship principles work well with camels.

It might be a good idea to avoid feeding him from your hand. I would also suggest spending time with him without asking for his attention. For example take a chair out to his paddock and read a book. This sort of thing should help him relax around you.

The former owners comment about "ruining Chuck" is harsh and unkind. I would forget about it if I was you.

[camelsinfrance]

I totally agree, but what I would say is, you need to take the dominant stance from the onset, and actually could risk problems if you sit on a chair... I only say this as my beautifully behaved Bactrian joined us at the table for lunch today, she was fine when she was cushed ( and had her own plate) but did get ideas above her station when she got up for a toilet break... This meant that we were lower than her, and she'd also spied a tasty tomato on the other side of the table which she HAD to have...
Take your book, but I suggest sitting on a fence or tether post so that you're HIGHER than him not lower, this way you'll have the upper hand from the start.
Incidentally - hows it going with him now? Please keep us all posted, once you've got used to eachother, and you've had experience with eachother you'll have a great time.
On a final note, when all my camels arrived, I deliberately fed them all from my hand to get them used to me and the fact that I was the head of the herd, and they needed to rely on me for food. To start with, I set up a crush so that I had distance ( and a solid bar) between them and me, if you don't have one, they're really easy to make!
Kind regards

[3droms]

Hehe yes it might be a good idea to be higher. Mine were stand-offish when they first arrived and it took them some time to relax so they didn't get that close. Just a side note - lots of animals will not eat tomato as many of the other plants in the genus Solanum (to which tomatos belong) are poisonous. Our camels and ducks wont touch it.

I also fed the camels from my hand to get them used to me but after reading some horse training books I wonder if it is a good practice. Having said that I still do it........

[camelsinfrance]

OOh that's interesting about tomatoes - thank you for that, won't go there again then... does it apply to strawberries too! ( I'm guessing it must do) When our camels first arrived all my smallest one would take from me was Strawberry jam on toast!!! SHe's got over that now, she's fine today after yesterdays tomatoes oops.

[camelsinfrance]

PS

It's really lovely to have more active members on this site now!

[ivieacres]

I agree that it is nice to have the support I need to get me used to Chuck. I am so glad that you all have shared your experiences with me about biting. I am pretty convenience that it just an attention thing with him.

I have not been out to spend anytime with him since Sunday, the weather here has been cold and I thought I would give him some more time to get use to the place and his neighboring animals friends. I noticed the horses next door are not staying so far away from him as they did the first day he came.

I don't think Chuck has been worked with much over the past year. I am going to take all of you guys advice and just spend more time around him and by him to get him to know me better.

I want to share a little more about myself with all of you. My husband and I own a little two acre farm in Utah-USA if you don't know where that it, it is the place that the 2002 winter olympics were held. Our farm is in the main valley of Salt Lake on the west side. The valley is surrounded by mountains-so having 2 acres right in the valley is getting more difficult to find.

My husband and I are empty nesters--he has a 40 hour a week job with computers and I stay at home to manage the farm, farm business and the house.

About 4 years ago we started to collect miniature farm livestock with the thoughts of doing a petting zoo--however last year with USDA regulations we were not able to get licensed. Hense we still have a farm full of miniature farm animals. We currently rent out ponies/miniature horses for parties and some events.

However, in 2001 we purchased Alpacas, in the hopes of making lots of money once we got them paid off. They were rather costly--but they got me interested in Camelids. Over the past 3 years, I have collected more Camelids--already had a llama as a guard animal for the alpacas, but I was able to get my hands on guanacos. I currently have a breeding trio of them. I then specialized in llamas but found some miniature ones--so I have a breeding pair of them, and just recently I have added Chuck---so out of the 5 species of Camelids-I have 4 now. I would love to get a Vicuna, but would have to import one from somewhere else. And since they are hard to come by, I don't think that I would pay the price someone would want.

Now with Chuck, since camels are somewhat rare to find find, especially to ride, I am hoping to get him up and going for that. I fortunately have a great vet that works on camels who lives about 30 miles from here. Charmaine Wright---she has written some good articles about care and taking care of camels.

Unfortunately if I do rides with Chuck at public events I have to be USDA licensed for him. For all of you who don't live in the US it is the goverment group that controls everything related to Agriculture and most animals-exhibited, sold for meat, breeding and so forth.

Do any of you belong to the allcamels-yahoo group. I first tried to get on as a member there---but not much activity going on there. I am going on there--they need to be redirecte to this group. Yeah for you guys!

[3droms]

Sorry my post about the tomatos wasn't very clear. Tomatos are not poisonous. Other members of the same genus (Solanum) are poisonous. I just found it strange that your camel would want the tomato thats all. It might reflect the distribution of poisonous Solanum species. There are certainly alot where I live (eg. Blackberry Nightshade and Wild Tobacco). This may be why my camels (and ducks) will not eat tomato.

There is no problem with camels and tomatos (that I know of ) :-).

[3droms]

Ivieacres, it sounds like a beautiful place to live.

Miniature llama???? How big is a miniature llama? :-)

[ivieacres]

I got up the courage and went out to work with Chuck. He got the best of me, as much as I tried to keep him under control. He started making the girgling noise witht he froth coming out of his mouth, by the time I put him in his pen, I had it all over my hair.

When I tried to make him cush, he did at first but kept getting up, and then he resisted the command and started pushing me around with his weight, I tried to keep him under control but then started "biting" at me. He didn't get me of course. I got so tired and frustrated I did the ultimate thing---gave into him.

I came in and opened up the forum and looked under camel training and read Charmaine Wrights article on nose pegs... Thank goodness I am about 30 miles from her and going to take advantage and get Chuck one.

Hopefully that will improve his attitude and training. Do any of you use nose pegs?

[3droms]

We don't use nose pegs. I can't say that I am a big fan of nosepegs however, it might be prudent if you want to ride (or if you want other people to ride) Chuck. I don't like the idea that the camel is motivated to behave by pain avoidance.

Is Chuck a bull?? I have heard that full males can be difficult to handle. We only have a bullock and he is an angel (and he doesn't froth). Maybe a nose peg is in order.

I'm decisive aren't I? he he

I can't help but think that Chuck needs some time to settle in and get used to you.

[Cameleer]

I wouldn’t recommend a nose peg, but I would recommend a stud chain like what is often used on stud horses. Hooking one up to the halter you can run it over or under their nose depending on what type of problem you are having.
For most types of problems the chain goes over their nose, but for getting them to lead and follow the chain goes under.

For working camels, like ones that give rides, when the chain goes on they know it’s working time and behave themselves.

[ivieacres]

We use a stud chain on him already. Are girls easier?

[may]

Hello ivieacres!

I think Bulls are definately interesting. But female camels can be very, very pushy too. They are all different (But what/who is not different from the other...)

I would like to confirm 3droms' post, saying that you should'nt be hard on yourself and give you and Chuck more time.
I'd say it's not unusual to take a couple of months until you can see a camel getting used to new sorroundings.

I spent some time with an untrained camel which was very nervous. He was separated from the other ones because he was so low in the hierarchy that he lost considerably weight. For a couple of weeks I fed him, dropped his food on the ground at one end of the yard, at had my own lunch on the other side on the rails. At the beginning, he was so nervous about me that he wouldn't start eating for 5 minutes. At the end he was ok with human presence.

My friends purchased an older camel as an addition to their other seven camels. At the beginning he was separate, not interested in either us or the camels. After 2 months he was happy.

...What I am trying to say is, that spending time around the camel can be a key, I think. I have great respect for you, starting to work with Chuck!
Although I am not there and not in your situation, but if I would I would tie him to a fence post and sit down on the top of the rail near him. Appear as if I'm not interested in him. Be there as long as possible.
Of course I can't tell now what Chuck's reaction will be.
What idealy happens is, that he is ok beeing tied onto the fence and that after a while he would look at me or sniff on me. After doing this "session like" every now and then, respectively every day, the realtionship between me and the camel should change in a positive way. Within the process I am allowed to show more and more interest in him during the sessions, if appropriate, I touch him.

...this is basicly a method adopted from Phil Gee's method for training wild camels. But as a basic trust work it is also practised also on traumatised/mistreated camels.

Although Chuck won't be a traumatised camel, I would do it like this because I am alone with him and have no other camels to help me working with him.

Take your time to get to know each other!

All the best, may

[ivieacres]

I have had my husband making him cush occasionally. I think your advise was really good about just being with him. I remember in Gee's training-he said he even slept with them. I don't know if I will go that far:) but my plans are starting to work with him week after next again. I think that I will take over feeding him and everything else. One thing that we are doing too is we take him out of his pen to make him cush. I think working with him outside the pen will help too. I want to be able to be totally focused with him and not just have short interval sessions.

[I love Gobi]

Whereas I don't have a Camel, I DO have Philip Gee's video about training Camels. If you have an opportunity to view or purchase it, it's pretty informative about how to interact with Camels. I wish I had a Bactrian, as I have fallen in love with Roger's "Gobi ", but don't have the facilities to have one. I live vicariously through all of you wonderful people on this Forum! :wave

[camelsinfrance]

Ivieacres
Hi
Don't worry about short sessions of work with your camel, quite often these turn out to be far more beneficial than long ones, as camels are reflecters!
All too often, I've spent just 10 minutes working with a camel, to find that the next day, they've thought about their work and repeated the same behaviours the following day..., and without fault.
Also, with your Bull, you may find that short stints of work 2 - 3 times a day will get his brain ticking, and if you stop at the peak of his interest, he won't try to get the better of you by testing you... instead, he'll be left wanting more!
I was thinking on the school run this morning about sleeping with camels, Phil Gee is ultimately "Camel God" and I admire his work, and appreciate his experience, but on this point, and on reflection, are we trying to attach human values to our relationship with them? It's hard not to as they're so adorable, but needs further thought before I take my duvet out there!

[ivieacres]

Thanks you for the idea of spending short times with him. Chuck was very unpleasant when he got his CDT shot last week. He got so mad that he bit my husband on the top of his bald head. I am not blaming Chuck, because I know he did not like the shot. However Chucks behavior is not getting any better, now the weather is better we are going to try some other things with him this week. I am really hoping that I can get him so he will mind us. Time will tell.

[camelsinfrance]

Sherrie
Another thought, would it be worth going back to the chap you bought him from and getting some feedback from him? What kind of handling had he had? How long had he had this camel for? Did you see him handling the camel in any great depth? I'm sure in time to come you'll look back on this as an experienced owner and laugh... but his behaviour is worrying.
Have you got any local camel owners who can come over to assist you?

[ivieacres]

There isn't much help with the previous owner---he hardly handled Chuck. The owner before him did some things with him, and he delivered him to us. That gentlemen was pretty uppity and obnoxious about Chuck. He showed us he would cush, follow, and get up. He also wants us to buy one from him, a female, trailer and all the tack. I am really leary since I have not had much luck with Chuck.

I have a lady that is about 30 minutes from me that is a trainer, I am going to hire her to train to take Chuck for two weeks and work with him. I am going to try to do that this month.

Thanks for the encouragement...

[CoO]

How are things going with Chuck, Sherrie? Did you talk to the trainer?

[ivieacres]

We have not been able to get Chuck to the trainer yet. But plan on doing soon. He behavior seems to be somewhat better with even a hint of playfulness. The past couple of days that I have been with him he doesn't make the gurgling nose, he has been making normal camel noises.

With him shedding, it is the perfect time to spend quality time with him. I don't take any food with me when I go to him, so he has stopped expecting it which I think was part of our problem before.

It also seems like he has gotten use to our home now. He doesn't seem so angry and agitated.

I am going to continue working with him on a daily basis now that the weather has turned warmer.

I want to thank everyone for their advise and encouragement.

I will keep you all updated on Chuck.

[camel2]

Maybe I missed it but is he an intact male or a gelding?? If he's intact, get him gelded or its just going to get worse and someone will get hurt. It sounds like a dominance issue...either that or perhaps the sessions are going to long and he's getting frustrated.

I apologize if I'm way off on my comments. I read through the responses very quickly. I think you are on the right track about getting him to a trainer.

[camel2]

Oops. I should at least read the first postin a little more closely. I see he is a gelding. Camels will respect you if you lay down the law. They wouldn't hold a grudge over a correction. It's herd dynamics. Either you are boss or he is boss.

[camelsinfrance]

How it going with Chuck?
What's the latest news? Hope all is well!
Kindest regards
Sarah

[ivieacres]

I like the comment about the herd dynamics. Either we are the boss or he is. I guess I never thought of it like that. I guess I should of since that's the way it is with horses too.

Haven't really thought much about it. My husband is spending more time with Chuck than I am right now. I think originally he just needed time to get use to us. I am still going to take him to a trainer, but need to make sure the weather is going to stay a little warmer.

Hopefully we can get him with her in about two weeks.

Thanks for asking.

[ozcamelgirl]

Hi
I was lucky to make friends with one of Australia's top trainers/jockeys before I even got my camels. She is a tiny person who uses "smart" roping and her very good understanding of camels to single-handedly break and train 8-9 foot racing camels, some from wild. If anyone comes across her - Glenda Sutton - she's one of the quietest camel experts but quite amazing. She's the camel equivalent of the horse whisperer phenomenom.

One of them - never, never let them win. As soon as they think they have a win, they'll get pushy and difficult.

I never ever tried to hush (cush) my camels at first unless I did it low down against a secure fence or ground chain, so that they couldn't win. If they get up, you drag them straight back down again.

Oops! Gotta get off the computer. Bummer!
Bye. Good luck.

[ozcamelgirl]

Sorry - was hurrying and managed to cut half my last post out, so my apologies if it seems a touch disjointed!

[Humphrey]

Hey Ozcamelgirl, do you live near Glenda and Peter by any chance? Im not that far from them, they were closer to me then they moved...but what a wealth of knowledge they both have. I remember Peter giving me a lesson on how to kush a young camel, by the seventh attempt this young one was doing it with ease.

[CoO]

I haven't seen any posts from you in a while. I have been so curious about how everything is going with Chuck!

[camel4ever]

Hi you should have a crash course in "camelology"! This may be of help: Pictorial Guide to Traditional Management, Husbandry and Diseases of the One-Humped Camel.

Is a photographic CD-ROM with 1000 captioned pictures on disease, husbandry, slaughtering, age determination etc etc of the camel.

It is available on line at: www.lulu.com/content/759963.